I'm amazed that, after all this time, people are still trotting out the "OD&D was a wargame" canard in order to defend the combat-heavy rules focus of later editions.
Hey Paladin. I just popped in to say howdy hello because I've not been over in a bit. Hope the snow is GONE now for good and that you guys have a groovy weekend.
Not much new here. Haven't been cooking much. Been busy with the pup, working and writing. But I did manage to make some homemade doggy treats not too long ago.
Wiggy loved them, but I thought they didn't taste enough like peanut butter.
So that's about all on our end. Just wanted to pop in and say howdy.
When I was a kid I always equated roleplaying with wargaming. Not as the same kind of games, but that gamers did both. D&D is most assuredly an RPG but can benefit from wargaming as well.
And the best thing of all about it being in black-and-white like this is that no one on the internet will every argue about it again. (Hey, a fella can have dreams, right?)
Since most of you started with Holmes or mentzer, it's little wonder you impression about what d&d started as is colored. By the book, a typical encounter might be 200 orcs with catapults a dragon and a handful of ogres; sounds skirmishy to me.
Expanded siege combat with catapult rules vs. Flying creatures and ship to ship boarding rules...ditto.
But none of the appear in Holmes, so I guess d&d really was a "role-playing game". Even more so in light of the new 80 page play report document "Rythlonder" that I'm sure you've read by now. Involving 40 players in one campaign, that reads more like an everquest raid (re: skirmish war-game).
I'm sure there was lots of heavy RP going on wit 40 players.
Involving 40 players in one campaign, that reads more like an everquest raid (re: skirmish war-game). I'm sure there was lots of heavy RP going on wit 40 players.
Not necessarily 40 at the same table...
“In the early days of playing Blackmoor,” said Greg Svenson, a long-time friend of Arneson’s, “when Dave wanted to see how the players would react to a situation he would set it up so that it would seem like we were in that situation and then see how we react. “For example, on my first dungeon adventure, Dave wanted to see what we would do when we first encountered “the blob”, so he took us (there were six of us) into the laundry area of the basement and turned out the lights saying a gust of wind had blown out our torches. Then he screamed as if a person was dying. He then turned the light back on to see what we had done.”
D&D started out as a way to layer role-playing over a tabletop fantasy wargame.
I think the mistake you are making is equating the tabletop fantasy wargame with the roleplaying game. Chainmail is not D&D. D&D merely uses Chainmail as it's combat system.
And for the record, I started with original dungeons and dragons ... men & magic, monsters & treasure, underworld & wilderness adventures, greyhawk, blackmoor, etc.
Absolutely, D&D was evolving in the 1973 to 1977 period. But one needs to remember that the wargamey parts come largely from one tradition (Gygax) while the roleplaying elements come largely from another (Arneson).
This advertisement appears in the Chainmail Rules, the Dungeons & Dragons Collector's Edition, and at the back of each of the OD&D Supplements.
I'm amazed that, after all this time, people are still trotting out the "OD&D was a wargame" canard in order to defend the combat-heavy rules focus of later editions.
ReplyDeleteThis is like the discovery of the D&D missing link! Thanks!
ReplyDeleteHey Paladin. I just popped in to say howdy hello because I've not been over in a bit. Hope the snow is GONE now for good and that you guys have a groovy weekend.
ReplyDeleteNot much new here. Haven't been cooking much. Been busy with the pup, working and writing. But I did manage to make some homemade doggy treats not too long ago.
Wiggy loved them, but I thought they didn't taste enough like peanut butter.
So that's about all on our end. Just wanted to pop in and say howdy.
Howdy.
:D
ReplyDeleteThanks for dropping by, i'll have to write another weather post.
Been following your Wiggy posts with interest!
People called it a "pen and paper" game for a reason and not a "pen and paper and lead miniatures" game. ;-)
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a kid I always equated roleplaying with wargaming. Not as the same kind of games, but that gamers did both. D&D is most assuredly an RPG but can benefit from wargaming as well.
ReplyDeleteGreat find, Paladin!
ReplyDeleteAnd the best thing of all about it being in black-and-white like this is that no one on the internet will every argue about it again. (Hey, a fella can have dreams, right?)
In any event, thanks for sharing. :D
Thanks for checking her out. She's a cutie. She's bug hunting right now.
ReplyDeleteGot tons of fun ingredients from the market tonight. Hope you're eating nummy things as well.
No more snow.
Ut, looks like she almost got the bug. Oh, she just ate a June bug. No, she spit it out.
This is live reporting from Wiggy Central.
Since most of you started with Holmes or mentzer, it's little wonder you impression about what d&d started as is colored. By the book, a typical encounter might be 200 orcs with catapults a dragon and a handful of ogres; sounds skirmishy to me.
ReplyDeleteExpanded siege combat with catapult rules vs. Flying creatures and ship to ship boarding rules...ditto.
But none of the appear in Holmes, so I guess d&d really was a "role-playing game". Even more so in light of the new 80 page play report document "Rythlonder" that I'm sure you've read by now. Involving 40 players in one campaign, that reads more like an everquest raid (re: skirmish war-game).
I'm sure there was lots of heavy RP going on wit 40 players.
Involving 40 players in one campaign, that reads more like an everquest raid (re: skirmish war-game). I'm sure there was lots of heavy RP going on wit 40 players.
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily 40 at the same table...
“In the early days of playing Blackmoor,” said Greg Svenson, a long-time friend of Arneson’s, “when Dave wanted to see how the players would react to a situation he would set it up so that it would seem like we were in that situation and then see how we react.
“For example, on my first dungeon adventure, Dave wanted to see what we would do when we first encountered “the blob”, so he took us (there were six of us) into the laundry area of the basement and turned out the lights saying a gust of wind had blown out our torches. Then he screamed as if a person was dying. He then turned the light back on to see what we had done.”
D&D started out as a way to layer role-playing over a tabletop fantasy wargame.
ReplyDeleteI think the mistake you are making is equating the tabletop fantasy wargame with the roleplaying game. Chainmail is not D&D. D&D merely uses Chainmail as it's combat system.
And for the record, I started with original dungeons and dragons ... men & magic, monsters & treasure, underworld & wilderness adventures, greyhawk, blackmoor, etc.
Absolutely, D&D was evolving in the 1973 to 1977 period. But one needs to remember that the wargamey parts come largely from one tradition (Gygax) while the roleplaying elements come largely from another (Arneson).