tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post8985266796057166595..comments2024-01-06T04:13:41.492-07:00Comments on A Paladin In Citadel: Player Skill In Combat I: Resource ManagementAaron E. Steelehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-1452191760066931292010-06-05T06:48:39.988-06:002010-06-05T06:48:39.988-06:00In general, a poor rules-lite system will suffer f...In general, a poor rules-lite system will suffer from the weight of its combined rulings. <br /><br />A well-designed one, with a single, logical system in place, will not suffer easily. <br /><br />The sad thing is, a lot of old school games tend to suffer that way. The only way to alleviate it is to make one rule that can be used in many, many situations, and tweak it as necessary for situations that don't quite fit the mold. <br /><br />Word verification: nuilingi:<br />A polynesian delicacyEric R. Wirsinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632409261940844934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-3424023146882283512010-04-20T10:17:21.773-06:002010-04-20T10:17:21.773-06:00Yep - see you have made it over to my blog, so hop...Yep - see you have made it over to my <a href="rolesrules.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">blog</a>, so hope others follow suit and read my ramblings - I am waiting to post up my almost-done monster collection before publicizing it more extensively.<br /><br />And yes indeed, the only thing iller than a Cronk was a <i>Demi-Cronk</i>. (Don't think too hard about them...)Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-86362943309303664562010-04-19T16:40:19.039-06:002010-04-19T16:40:19.039-06:00Love the avatar, Roger.
The foul Cronk, a monster...Love the avatar, Roger.<br /><br />The foul Cronk, a monster from one of my favorite minigames.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-74537270636564651022010-04-19T16:38:16.283-06:002010-04-19T16:38:16.283-06:00Good insight, about rules vs. rulings.
Part of th...Good insight, about rules vs. rulings.<br /><br />Part of the advantage of rules-light games is that is permits rulings.<br /><br />The cruel irony is that every game system will ultimately collapse under the weight of its collected rulings, as they become rules.<br /><br />It's a natural evolution that no-one playing older games (including me) wants to acknowledge.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-29442495289992062102010-04-19T11:07:32.591-06:002010-04-19T11:07:32.591-06:00Would it be fair to say that system mastery relate...Would it be fair to say that system mastery relates to using the rules as written, while player skill operates in a more improvised way, forcing the GM or judge to make rulings? That is where I would draw the line that is most useful for dividing old-school feel from heavily rules-based systems. The only way I can see the M/W/F system as being different from 4e's system of character powers is that the number of situations each mechanic applies to is greater, so it feels more improvisational, even though of course it is completely rules-defined.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-49918851854715068672010-04-17T15:18:34.790-06:002010-04-17T15:18:34.790-06:00BTW, Delta, you're quite right. The M/W/F att...BTW, Delta, you're quite right. The M/W/F attributes have some of the same features as 4E feats. The difference is that those M/W/F atributes are generic / fungible, and/or their application and use can be simply communicated.<br /><br />I can tell a new player "You are a hero. These might points allow you to preempt others, re-roll, add a point to a roll, and take additional actions." It's then up to the player to use their skill and creativity to utilize those points, at the most opportune time.<br /><br />Again, I see M/W/F more as resources to be managed, rather than rules to be mastered.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-87815785403243361722010-04-17T15:00:07.827-06:002010-04-17T15:00:07.827-06:00Incidentally, part of my dislike for luck/benny sy...Incidentally, part of my dislike for luck/benny systems is the vague sense that they are there to moderate, minimize or militate against the authority of the DM. <br /><br />Some of those systems even allow you to add a new element to the game, or otherwise change the "story". <br /><br />Many people like those sorts of games, and I would not refuse to play one, it just rubs me the wrong way is all.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-18434238130871285142010-04-17T14:52:11.533-06:002010-04-17T14:52:11.533-06:00"I find that the B/X combat system requires a...<i>"I find that the B/X combat system requires a lot of player skill in the terms that you give - resource management.<br /><br />Trying to maximize your resources - hit points, # of attacks, spells, consumable magic items, etc - while minimizing those of your opponents is paramount in surviving in B/X."</i><br /><br />I agree. B/X is rules-light enough that it allows (and almost requires) players to use their own skills, rather than just what is written down on their character sheets. As first level characters (one with one hit point and a 3 Constitution), what did we kill, 23 orcs, and only suffered a single casualty?Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-60875766259591169732010-04-17T14:43:44.547-06:002010-04-17T14:43:44.547-06:00"I'm generally not in favor of Fate/Luck/...<i>"I'm generally not in favor of Fate/Luck/Action point-type systems. It seems like your comments about system-mastery (which are good!) are equally applicable to the Might/Will/Fate system (and in fact my own #1 complaint about these systems)"</i><br /><br />I'm also generally not a big fan of luck-point systems. In LOTR:SBG I think it makes sense, since it is a heroic player vs. player combat game. <br /><br />Most PvP games have a force-balancing mechanism: LOTR:SBG's mechanism is a point-buy system, so that more powerful combatants, with lots of M/W/F, cost more.<br /><br />I think the interesting nugget to be gleaned from LOTR:SBG's system is the idea of resource management. It's not just that you have M/W/F. It's that - as a player - you have to decide WHEN TO APPLY those resources. That is the player-skill part of the equation. I have played many LOTR:SBG games where the clever and timely use of M/W/F has significantly turned the tide of a battle. <br /><br />I think I understand what you mean about M/W/F being artificial. It is. I think Str, Dex, Con, HP, AC, Saves, numbers of arrows, days of rations, spells and so on are also artificial. <br /><br />Other than our shared dislike of luck-points/bennies as a game mechanic, do you find those luck-points more artificial that other game resources, like Spells or Hit Points?Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-47135963516401675272010-04-17T14:21:38.341-06:002010-04-17T14:21:38.341-06:00"I think if you want to see player skill then...<i>"I think if you want to see player skill then combat has to be suitably difficult. If the PCs can just waltz in and slay anything with little effort (strategy, planning, etc.) then they will do so."</i><br /><br />Check out P_Armstrong's reply. You're right, player skill can make combats easier. In older versions of D&D that means you can make your game day longer, as you are using your resources judiciously and strategically.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-43612961963764536622010-04-17T14:18:56.539-06:002010-04-17T14:18:56.539-06:00"The advanced rules for use of courage for ex...<i>"The advanced rules for use of courage for example may force a retreat after only three or four wounds are inflicted, no matter who they are inflicted to."</i><br /><br />I agree. You'd have to provide some sort of will-0bonus to characters with higher Charisma scores, and allow them to use their will points to keep their henchmen from failing a courage roll.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-23506282183003987082010-04-17T13:01:43.033-06:002010-04-17T13:01:43.033-06:00I find that the B/X combat system requires a lot o...I find that the B/X combat system requires a lot of player skill in the terms that you give - resource management.<br /><br />Trying to maximize your resources - hit points, # of attacks, spells, consumable magic items, etc - while minimizing those of your opponents is paramount in surviving in B/X.<br /><br />An example of this is comparing my old Northern Marches group, which included a few 3E players that didn't have experience with older versions of D&D and the game that you and Roger played in at Red Box Calgary.<br /><br />The Northern Marches group didn't understand the basic tactics required and suffered atrocious casualty rates while you and Roger went into the orc caves in the Caves of Chaos and did a very effective job of using tactics to overcome nearly all of the obstacles with very little casualties.<br /><br />Word verification: Sheea - cousin of Xena.P_Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12374589162025099763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-73060101658617220662010-04-17T12:24:18.664-06:002010-04-17T12:24:18.664-06:00I'm generally not in favor of Fate/Luck/Action...I'm generally <a href="http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2009/04/action-point-checklist.html" rel="nofollow">not in favor of Fate/Luck/Action point</a>-type systems. It seems like your comments about system-mastery (which are good!) are equally applicable to the Might/Will/Fate system (and in fact my own #1 complaint about these systems):<br /><br />"... by and large wholly artificial: a fresh player would not be able to use deduction or common sense, based on their understanding of real world physics, common sense or historical tactics, to intuit the most appropriate feat to apply in a combat situation."Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-9946764196066855912010-04-17T11:47:11.825-06:002010-04-17T11:47:11.825-06:00I think if you want to see player skill then comba...I think if you want to see player skill then combat has to be suitably difficult. If the PCs can just waltz in and slay anything with little effort (strategy, planning, etc.) then they will do so.<br />When they realize that they are in over their heads is when you see the really clever strategies come out. Traps, ambushes, and use of advantageous terrain. <br />People are lazy and unless they have reason to believe its going to be unusually difficult, they will just kick down the door and club everything over the head.Obirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13423387256920495798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4891509519427970698.post-8763542120603089572010-04-17T09:15:44.098-06:002010-04-17T09:15:44.098-06:00While I like the combat system designed for LOTR I...While I like the combat system designed for LOTR I find the rules a little broad in their usage. In the Smallest Iteration of the ruleset designed for 7 - 15 figures or people, roughly a band of adventurers, the rule system breaks down somewhat. The advanced rules for use of courage for example may force a retreat after only three or four wounds are inflicted, no matter who they are inflicted to. This neglects the ability of a good leader to keep his fellows in a fight and possibly, against the odds still win the day. If wounds remaining were counted instead of characters the rule may work better. But I can see that such a system may have something to offer a "Rules Light" roleplaying system.TheWandererhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03008696763931290066noreply@blogger.com